As you know, it was not written by Calvin. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. That is the only argument they have. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point.. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. Calvinists are Christians and Calvinists and non-Calvinist Christians share a multitude of common ideas and beliefs. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. If it does, then Im find with that. Everything. I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. I know the WCF does not say it. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. Even if they are wrong, there are probably some good issues that are worth being explored. John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. . But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. (I mean, Star Trek?). I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Charles . Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. There is a new evangelism taking place. But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? Thank you, Deb. 14 William Lane Craig Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 A person who is happy (if that word lacks depth for anyone, you could substitute hopeful, optimistic, joyful, grateful) can affect others with it, 3 generations worth (ie- someone with happiness holds a door for someone carrying a heavy load, that person is then affected positively and they in turn affect someone else with their bolstered happiness). But the guy still strikes me as the I have Everything figured out! Does that make my stance clearer? @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. JeffS we were writing at the same time. I think that is biblical. Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. And thanks for your honest answers. . When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. The theology is weak. @ JeffB: If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Lin wrote: It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! . This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. He said he found comfort from it. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . Jimmy Draper. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. In some respects we all do that. There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. Good point. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) . This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. Demand they defend their ideas. System- & neat-little-box-free. Nicholas what a great link. @ Julie Anne: about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. But are *we* the measure of truth? @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Why the pessimism? Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. This might be where Romans 8:28 comes in, or the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. God can do that. The promises are over the top. I have not had that experience. For a son to commit suicide? To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. Im sure there are believers in every venue. Off my nursing soapbox . Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Very good points on suggestions for non-Cs on how to view Cs. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom Ben Witherington III 24. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. God ordains everything and man has a degree of free will how can these both be true? In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. He is still in a leadership position within the church. I think this is true. I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Reformed(TM): Christ is thrown under the bus and there is only CALVIN! However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. R.C. Indeed. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. I was aware of Reformed theology and had friends in each of those churches who tipped that way. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. @ Argo: If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. by allowing them). So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Ask a lot of questions. We have a question for you? Apparently Imade some remark that all infants who die go to heaven. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. Do you believe that God could not stop you if he wished? The bullying was behind the scenes. I honestly dont know.) As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. 2. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. All this does is affirm theism itself. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. I may be wrong, but I think Enns is a Calvinist. But the rest of the bad stuff? Wow-at least you got the Christian part. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. There was a reason we (the US) put in a Constitutional Amendment to term limit the president. It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. So I Must Be! as the indicator. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. F.B. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. Everything. As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. But I doand I understand where Jeff S is coming from here. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. But I know the principles are the same. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. Where we end, he begins. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. I have been given books and literature from Prayers are sustaining me right now. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. Jeff S, I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. Pg 75 Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. Glad to have someone who gets my background! This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. I just checked my Google News and there was an Associated Press story marking 20 years since Al Mohler took over SBTS. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. I dont think that is what TWW is for, and if it were then I wouldnt be here. I would be some place where I could state my beliefs openly. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. One forum in particular, no matter what web site or book title I threw out that pointed out flaws in Calvinism (TULIP/ Reformed same thing to me), the Calvinists would scoff and say each author I brought up could be dismissed because he doesnt understand Calvinism or presents a strawman of Calvinism. even when said authors quoted directly from the books of famous Calvinists. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. Do you share these thoughts? But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. I wont go into all of them. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. You are still lost in your finite mind. When people have been hurt by something they have come to realize was wrong, they will present their disagreements with fervor. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. Vous tes ici : churro cart rental bay area; circuit courts are also known as; list of non calvinist theologians . When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. This was no emotional, short term thing. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. Alexander Maclaren 15. How is that? I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. I agree with that perspective as well. I know. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. whats so complicated about that? The accurate view of TD can be found in the chart that I linked to in my reply to dee. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). Sois that what we are saying? This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. I find that to be an amazing God thing. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. B. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! Thank you for helping me out. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. Sydney Anglicans are Calvinist, Moore College is strongly Calvinist, as of course are the Presbyterians and some Baptists. Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. So far, we both agree. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. 1. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. The way total depravity was explained to me (via a G. I. Williamson commentary on one of the Westminster Catechisms, cant remember if it was longer or shorter) was with the example of a glass of water. You have nothing to do with it. Yet again! The article you listed included the following quote from Mohler:Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. I think I would rather not go the route of trying to figure things out in that way; it leads to some very painful things. So when people try to argue logical conclusions of my beliefs, I tend to get upset if they arent conclusions that I arrive at. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? I was pointing out that this is an issue that goes beyond Reformed theology. EGOTISM. My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament Craigs got it right. The rule about not eating the fruit was just as much an opportunity for Adam/Eve to choose good as it was to choose evil. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. Tell himyou love himanyway. Are they involved in a joint venture? At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. @ Nick Bulbeck: I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? CALVIN! When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. ). His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. They are letting someone else handle driving. And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology.